jamesireland

Sunset Course Redesign

95 posts in this topic

While I am glad to see some young blood get interested in doing something with Disc Golf around here, I think you are making a mistake with jumping into this course redesign for Sunset. I know during the last redesign process, there was alot of talk, and very little action when it came down to doing the work. I thought Milton was supposed to be our local "championship" course. Well that has never happened yet

It sounds awesome to have a "Championship" course and all, and of course Feldberg is a legend and all that, but I think you have lost sight of what Sunset DGC is all about. Sunset is not, and cannot ever be a championship course. I don't care what you do to the layout, top Pro players will never want to come play it because it is too short and has too many trees.

The vast majority of the people who play Sunset NEVER use the Pro tees that are there. Many of them are scared of the water and loosing thier discs in it. You guys all know that is not a problem for me, and I am not saying this for my benefit.

Sunset has always been a great beginners and family course. I've lost track of how many times I've seen Grandparents, Parents and Grand children out there playing together. And all the baby carriages I have seen being pushed around there.

I think if you go with Feldberg's design, you won't see that happening nearly as much any more.

Here are the issues I see with that design.

1. You have several places where you must cross over the fairway of another hole to get to to your next tee box. Bad idea, especially for tournament play.

2. Many people who play Sunset are afraid of the water and loosing thier discs. The new design makes this much more of a problem and fear factor than it is now.

3. Hole #6 - many people will never even attempt to play that hole because they can't throw it that far across the lake. In addition, you know how small that island is, tee shots from #6 are going to be ALL OVER #11's basket and fairway, Very bad idea! Not everyone who plays at Sunset has Feldberg's accuracy and distance from the tee.

4. How many time have your games been delayed looking for a lost disc on #6? ANd its only 140 feet. Unless you plan on clear cutting that island, you will have all kinds of delays and lost discs because of the heavy underbrush / palmettos there. You will not be able to see where your disc lands from the proposed #6 tee box, and you are just asking for trouble.

5. Hole #11 - Same thing, too much water hazard for many players, this hole will get skipped too.

6. So what will happen is, instead of having to skip those holes, people will just skip playing Sunset entirely. Is that in the public's best interest? You know how many people already don't play the front 9, and just play the back nine so they don't loose their discs in the lake? Alot. I see it all the time

7. Hole #10 is the same issue, many people will be afraid to throw over that much water, and will not attempt to play the hole. Way to easy to hyzer it into the lake. Beginners, women and juniors will not be able to throw a disc far enough to make it to the island, much less with the accuracy to keep it out of the lake.

8. The other thing I don't see on this design is Am tees. Are all the holes going to be Pro/AM? As I stated earlier, most people don't use the Pro tees already. Think about all the moaning and groaning there is at club tosses when we use the Pro Tees, and that is from people who, theoretically, know how to play alot better than the general public.

My wife likes to play at Sunset. There is no way she could or would play #6, #10 or #11. What about the juniors, women, and beginner players? They won't want to play those holes either, not when the odds are they will throw thier discs into the water. Are you just going to forget all about the women, juniors, beginners and older players? You honestly think Sunset DGC is gonna be a major attraction to the touring Pros? That course is supposed to be for the local community, not some fantasy big time tournaments.

I am not trying to rain on anybody's parade or anything, but I think if you fail to consider my above points, you are doing the general public (not the Disc Golfing Elite) a disservice. You will be taking an excellent beginners level course and turning it into sub mediocre tournament course that won't even get used by the local community, or by touring Pros for that matter.

If the city wants Gulf Breeze to be a Disc Golf destination, then they need to build a more difficult course on the south side of the park, and have 36 holes in Gulf Breeze. That would bring more people, and make it way, way better as a tournament venue.

PS- sorry if I was rude or offended anybody, when I get on my internet soapbox, I tend to be overly dramatic and somewhat of an jerk.

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Good points Chrispy!

I had a few of those same thoughts, just wasn't brave enough to say them.

I wasn't quite sure what Feldberg was going after. I think in his mind he was trying to make a challenging tournament course for tournament play.

I think his layout would be great for that, but really the whole idea of this course in my mind like you mentioned is getting people playing the sport and having a great time, and not worrying about several holes that they could lose their disc.

I think the south side of the park would be a better place to develop a championship course, but as I understand it it is heavily wooded and is swampland.. not very desirable if we are the ones to have to develop that course, it would take a very long time to clear that land.. not even sure if it is worth it because of the elevation, but I haven't been down there in awhile.

Personally I don't want Sunset to be so dumbed down that all you need is a putter to play it, I would want there to be pro and am tees and make sure both are a challenge, but also fun to play.

I know that Ben is set on using Dave's layout, but maybe we could use some of his hole ideas and come up with a couple of alternate layouts.

I will be willing to sit down and map them out if anyone has any ideas.

I can also put together another design now that I know where we will be parking and exactly what pieces of land we can use.

Other people's thoughts??

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I just spent about 15 minutes looking over the proposed designs for Sunset. I am not an expert on courses, nor do I pretend to be. With that being said, my opinions are as follows.

1. This course design gets me excited at first glance. I think it is a great utilization of the small area, and appears to offer a tournament grade course(which was supposedly part of the objective right?)

2. This is not family or beginner friendly at all. Alot of those people you see on the course will no longer risk casually playing this course, as stated before. Im an avid player, and I would more than likely not casually play this course much at all. The water shots carry too much risk for practice rounds or casual play. With that being said, I'd love to play a tournament in this layout, but would not be present at weekly rounds here. Id run out of discs before too long lol.

3. This design does not represent what Gulf Breeze and the current course represents. A fun, yet challenging beginner friendly course, that attracts families and newer plays to come out and enjoy the game of disc golf. If these plans are adopted, this is far from a redesign. Its brand new, and will not carry the same identity as the course in place currently. Just keep that in mind.

4. My suggestion is to look into the land across the road, and see if it would be feasible to design a tournament grade, or beginner course on that side. Also offer ideas of other park amenities that could be added if that side was utilized, to add incentive to the mix. Take a look at other city parks, there are plenty of examples. If the city will not consider this, I feel as though the objective of this redesign needs to be revisited. If it is to attract families and new players to the park and to the sport, then this is not the right design. Period. However, if the objective is a tournament grade course that brings multiple tournaments a year and is very challenging, this may be the right design.

Kind of repetitive but thats just my 2 cents. This will definitely be a big debate in the coming months

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Mr. James Ireland, you are guessing at my opinion by speaking for me. I am set on nothing, other than, doing as much as I can to help this project along. :-)

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Mr. Chris Byrnes, can we expect your course design suggestion and professional endorsement sometime this week? We are planning to present to the city board soon.

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Mr. Ryan Vann, Instead of having a few pro pads throughout the course, we would have am pads for every instance where the water is a great risk, and maybe and am pad for 18. No worries!

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Glad to see so much input and passion for disc golf in the Gulf Breeze area! I'm sorry I cannot be there to help. I hope everyone stays focused on this project and works together!

We are so lucky in the NW Florida area to have so many great courses, clubs, and people to grow this sport! Everyone stick together and help each other continue to build-up disc golf.

We all have opinions on what the "new" course should or shouldn't be. If we all work together we can make sure it's great. We have too many passionate people that love disc golf to not work together on this.

ECDGC, I'm coming to visit in April, please have a bagtag ready for me to purchase! Can't wait to see all of my friends! Later!

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It is my understanding that the Parks Dept. requested a course design that would allow tournaments at Sunset Park, similiar to the tournaments at Blue Angel Rec Area, that would draw players from miles around. It is with that request in mind that Feldbergs design draws from. I agree with Crispy that the average Sunset Park disc golfer is going to be very intimidated if his design is implemented, but the average Sunset Park disc golfer should be intimidated by a course that would promote a competitive tournament atmosphere. The Parks dept. got the design that they asked for. Hopefully everyone posting in here will get together at a meeting soon and settle on one unified voice that we can present to the City Council to help Ben and his efforts thus far.

Look forward to getting together with everyone soon.

P.S. Superbowl party at my house Sunday.....food, outdoor projector, loads of fun, practice basket, wife and baby will vacate, everyone is welcome.

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Ben,

I was basing my opinion off the text you sent me that said "what other option do we have". I am not against Dave's design, if the course is meant to be a challenging tournament course, then I believe that is the best that he could come up with. And again, thank you for stepping up to the plate and getting this thing rolling in a major way.. it is easy to sit back and talk but do nothing... you have gotten this thing going and we are very much appreciative for that.

I do agree with Chrispy that during play there are several times where you have to cross in the path of someone throwing at you.

Here are 5 concerns I have. But again, I know that the map I have is approximate, we won't really know how safe this course will be unless we test it out with a bunch of people playing at the same time.

1) Walking from basket 5 to hole 6 - You could possibly get hit from a teepad throw off of teepad 18 (maybe not so much of an issue), or an errant teepad throw from teepad 14

2) If long bridge is not built across the pond for hole 6, then Holes 14, 10 and possibly 11 could come into play as being safety hazards if you were to walk to the small island to get your disc

3) The walk from teepad 10 to basket 10, Hole 14 could be a safety hazard, especially if the Black Lagoon gets a heavy rainfall and it forces you to walk closer to the fairway

4) Walk from teepad 11 to basket 11, you would have to walk across the existing bridge where people are throwing to basket 10

5) Walk from teepad 14 to basket 14, hole 10 could be a safety hazard, or even possibly hole 5. (May want to add a mando on hole 14 so that people walking to basket 10 from teepad 10 are safe.)

The other holes 1,2,3,4,5,7,8,9,12,13,15,16,17,18 seem to be pretty safe

I do understand that no matter what layout you have, because this is such a small piece of property there will always be at least minor safety hazards.. but I think the one's I mentioned need to at least be addressed.

I think the best thing to do is what Bluff had mentioned, gathering 18 baskets, and getting a bunch of people to play and test out these potential safety hazards.

Thanks Ttothe for helping to clarify the objective of the course. If that's what the city is asking for, then that is the direction we need to go.

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Thanks for the additional info about the proposed design. It is not clear from the map that there would have been any AM pads to use for the water holes so people would not throw into the lake.

BTW, are the new pads going to be concrete or asphalt?

The reason there haven't been any tournaments at Sunset has nothing to do with the course design, it has been that nobody has organized and run one. Just like Milton, which is a far better venue for a tournament than Sunset, nobody has stepped up and wanted to do it, so you haven't had any tournaments. Changing a course won't make tournaments magically appear, it takes someone willing to put the time and effort in to be the TD to make it happen.

And for that matter, having run 5 SN sanctioned tournaments at Sunset, I can tell you that the course works just fine for tournaments, and flows very well, without unnecessary bottlenecks and safety issues. The main goal of the last redesign was to make the course work well for tournaments, and the design proved to do just that.

Again, I think most of you are missing the whole point of Sunset, being a beginner friendly course for the community. You want to turn it in to something its not, and chase people away that use it by making it too difficult for them to play, What is up with that?

I guess I am just a believer in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

You want difficulty? Go to Blue Angel, go to Milton and play the pro tees (if they ever get installed). Don't ruin Sunset for the casual players and families who use it now. You're taking a couse with 12 Am tees, the ones that get played by the vast majority, and making a course with only 3 am tees which are merely an after thought to make up for a bad design.

With all that being said, I am not against trying to make Sunset a better course, I just question who you are trying to make it better for.

Here are the issues I have with the design that is proposed.

Hole #1 - looks fine (AM tee?)

Hole#2 - looks fine

Hole #3 - looks ok, but be careful about #4's tee, looks like a lot of people's shots are gonna end up on interfering with people teeing off on #4. Also going to have some shots going out in to the sidewalk/road

Hole #4 - looks like the current Am 18

Hole #5- Very bad transition from #4, having to cut across #17's fairway. Looks like the fairway for #5 is partially the road and sidewalk, better make sure no one is allowed to park thier cars on the fairway. Also looks like it could be a problem for beginners and casual players tee shots coming into the basket area on #13. Long walk from basket to #6 tee, possibly distracting for players on #14 and #18

Hole #6 - Major issue with lost/hard to find discs due to palmettos and trees. Lots of discs will go into the lake from short and shanked drives or bouncing off trees. Fairway overlaps with # 11 basket and putting green. Needs an additional bridge across the canal, or else you will have to walk down #7's faiway to get to the basket. AM pad required, and beginners/Ams will be throwing onto #11's basket as well.

Hole #7 - looks OK

Hole #8 - looks OK (Am pad?)

Hole #9 - looks pretty sketchy with being on top of the Tee Ball field, throwing across the gate to the maintenance area, as well as danger of hitting cars in the parking lot from hyzered shots.

Hole #10 - Not too bad for good players who have the distance and accuracy to make the island, and don't mind loosing a few discs from time to time. Have to walk down the middle of 14's fairway to get to proposed bridge. Where will the Am tee be? On 14's fairway? Am shot will be 100' or less putt , not a very good good hole at all for Am's

Hole # 11 - not too bad for players who have the control to stay out of the water. Basket is in the middle of #6's fairway. Many drives will land in #6 faiway. Basket very close to #12 tee box Where will the Am tee be? On the island? 50 foot shot from Am tee?

Hole #12 -looks OK. Be careful of people hyzering tee shots into #13 tee area

Hole #13 - looks Ok, possibility of hyzering into #5 basket or #14 tee

Hole #14 - Looks Ok, transition to #15 looks sketchy with people cutting across #18's fairway or basket area

Hole #15 - Looks Ok

Hole #16 - Looks Ok, be careful of #17 tee area

Hole #17 - Squeezed in for Lack of anything else. Throwing over the road? Shots into sidewalk and street could be an issue, Basket looks close to #5 tee

Hole 18 - looks good. I think there is already a plan for an Am tee?

When you design a community course in a small public park like Gulf Breeze, you should be thinking of the Ams and Pro's when you make the design, not focusing solely on the Pro perspective. We spent alot of time on the last redesign making sure that there were Pro and AM tees on as many holes as possible (12) so that there was something for everybody, and I just don't see that happening here with this design.

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I can answer a few of those questions...

Concrete teepads

"Hole #5- Very bad transition from #4, having to cut across #17's fairway. Looks like the fairway for #5 is partially the road and sidewalk, better make sure no one is allowed to park thier cars on the fairway. Also looks like it could be a problem for beginners and casual players tee shots coming into the basket area on #13. Long walk from basket to #6 tee, possibly distracting for players on #14 and #18"

They will make an opening in the fence to allow you to walk on the sidewalk going from basket 4 to teepad 5.

There will not be any parking here anymore, all parking will be near teepad 1 area.

"Hole #8 - looks OK (Am pad?)"

No need for an Am Pad, it will be just a tiny bit longer than the existing hole, and Dave wants us to cut a new fairway into the woods.

"Hole #14 - Looks Ok, transition to #15 looks sketchy with people cutting across #18's fairway or basket area"

You will walk from basket 14 to the parking lot, and walk in near teepad 1 to go to Teepad 15. (There will be a kiosk and possibly a putting practice basket near the entrance as well).

"Hole #17 - Squeezed in for Lack of anything else. Throwing over the road? Shots into sidewalk and street could be an issue, Basket looks close to #5 tee"

This will be what Dave called a TPC hole, you will have to throw into the fenced area, if you don't make it, there will be a one stroke penalty and a drop zone (the basket is located in the triangle fenced in area south of the road nowhere near teepad 5.

"Hole 18 - looks good. I think there is already a plan for an Am tee?"

Yes I agree I believe this would be a great hole for Am Tee.

Ok Crispy, if you want this to continue to be a Pro/Am course, can you draw up a redesign. I will be happy to sit down and map it out.

I really do think we should propose 2 or 3 different layouts to present to the board...

As the course stands today it needs some redesign no matter what we do.

I think Dave did well placing 10 baskets on the North side of the road and 8 on the south side. When I was trying to come up with a redesign, it is very hard to fit 9 safe holes on the South side of the road....

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Thanks for your input Waylon, I know that you know, you are missed!

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Cmon, I am just not an eliquent speaker like Thomas and James. But I do intend to work may monkey off at this course. All of these issues have been discussed with our city contact, safety and fun for all!!! As we speak, the bid for building bridges is being prepared. If there is anyone out there who could also produce a bid to build the new bridges, please let me know. Everyone know that blueprints are wishlists, there will be many tweaks to the design. If we stay with Dave's design at the core, we could have another legend connected to Pensacola. (Bubba W.)

P.S. I am rooting for you, Crispy, to be on team Pensacola this year!

BM

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Here are some tasks/ideas that Dave came up with in our meeting for the current proposed layout.

Sunset Disc Golf Course Ideas

Ideas:

1) Create a practice area near Hole 1

2) Have a bag holder that has 3 pegs and could double as a tee sign for each hole.

3) Possibly have a shoe cleaner at each hole to give better grip

4) Clear all brush under 4 inches.

5) Clear at least 30 feet around each basket for putting

6) Recommended 6x12 (approx $200 per teepad) or 5x10 concrete teepads rectangle in shape and texturized on top

7) Add three new bridges

8) Add a kiosk near teepad 1 area

9) Take up all existing teepads and basket pin locations

Hole #

1) Define out of bounds loop to create an island around hole

2) To be determined according to what structures are built

3) Mando is the power pole by tennis courts, Clear tree on NW corner of tennis courts

4) Clear around teepad, fence is out of bounds

5) Road is out of bounds on right

6) Clear first island that you have to throw over, cut path

7) Clear 40 feet back create gap and have 30 feet clear around basket

8) Clear around teepad, create a 70 feet deep gap and clear 30 feet around basket

9) Good to go.

10) Create trail to go to bridge on smaller island

11) Clear teepad and then clear path on smaller island, major clearing on both islands

12) Clear path to basket

13) Clear around basket 30 feet

14) Good to go.

15) Elevated natural area around basket with possibly grass and possibly have longer pole for basket

16) Good to go.

17) You will re tee if you do not land inside the triangle or have a drop zone

18) Good to go.

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Hey James, on #15, it is actually an elevated basket. We could set the basket on top of a large 12 ft. mound, so that if you miss a putt your disc will likely get a roll off the mound.

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Oops good catch i was typing too fast. I fixed my post.

Yeah that would be cool to make a mound.

I think that Chrispy has brought up some good points, but unless there is another design for people to look at, then it looks like we should go forward with Dave's design. Should we maybe setup a time frame.. if we don't have an alternate layout by a certain date, then we move forward with Dave's design?

Ben, would you want to setup another meeting to discuss costs for materials and to start setting up work days, and layout what we want to present to the board... just a thought... Also, I wonder if the city would help in some way maybe allow some inmates to help dig out existing teepads and possibly build the frames for the teepads?

I guess we also should decide if we should maybe leave a few baskets in the ground temporarily while we work on other areas of the course.

Definitely the most work we will have to do will be the large island and working on clearing out the fairways we need to cut into the woods and clearing around all basket areas mostly on the north side of the road.... I would say over the next 3 months it would be the best time to work out there while the weather is relatively cool.

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Ben, will Thursday March 7th, 2013 at 6PM to 8PM at my church work in your schedule to setup a meeting for Sunset Redesign only?

Hey watta ya know, they actually did spell Disc (k) Golf correctly on the original Sunset Course Sign before the hurricane wiped it out :D

Posted Image

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The reason there haven't been any tournaments at Sunset has nothing to do with the course design, it has been that nobody has organized and run one. Just like Milton, which is a far better venue for a tournament than Sunset, nobody has stepped up and wanted to do it, so you haven't had any tournaments. Changing a course won't make tournaments magically appear, it takes someone willing to put the time and effort in to be the TD to make it happen.

If I can TD an event out here that draws 100 people, can we just do some minor changes to the course?

I'd like to demonstrate to the park that the course doesn't need to be completely overhauled to attract a big tournament. It would save a lot of time and money. Definitely would like to see the baskets repainted and a couple elevated greens put in though!

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I dont believe we have met yet, although I've seen your name all over the SN forums.

The club will be having a special Sunset Redesign Meeting in the next couple of weeks to discuss concerns and/or propositions for this project. We held an ECDGC meeting last night, and we were informed of what the city was hoping to accomplish in this project. They are looking for more than a tweak, but rather a brand new and more challenging course be put into place. They are providing all the funds to renovate and make the course like the plans you have seen.

With that being said, if you'd like to attend the meeting to give your ideas or opinions, we'd love to have you. If you are unable to attend, then you could submit any proposals you may have to myself and I will make sure they get discussed. Nothing is set in stone, but it appears as though the city is wanting to move forward with Feldburgs design. We also intend to discuss many tweaks to the design to make it safer, and to add AM/REC pads for the less skilled players.

We hope to see you at the meeting.

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Ben, will Thursday March 7th, 2013 at 6PM to 8PM at my church work in your schedule to setup a meeting for Sunset Redesign only?

Hello James, you should feel free to text my phone as well, I would have responded sooner. This date works just fine for me!

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Ben, will Thursday March 7th, 2013 at 6PM to 8PM at my church work in your schedule to setup a meeting for Sunset Redesign only?

Hello James, you should feel free to text my phone as well, I would have responded sooner. This date works just fine for me!

Wont be able to make this date with the relatively short notice. I would be able to the next thursday however. Thats up to yall

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Ok will Monday March 11th at 6PM at Charity Chapel work with everyone?

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Class Mondays from 230-845. I'm impossible I know.

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Ok Official Club Meeting for Sunset Redesign has been set for:

Monday March 11th, 2013

6:00PM to 8:00PM

Charity Chapel

5820 Montgomery Ave

Pensacola, FL 32526

Park in the large front parking lot

Matt or Mike can you post this to Facebook.. thanks

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